It’s the end of the World as we know it…

…and I feel fine.

I liked the story, but I think it does set a rather ‘high bar’ for people joining.

Most people who join DD do it out of love of the game, and the community focus. While those aren’t lost, the expectations have certainly been raised for strips on the site (however unintentionally).

Left by Cindermain on September 28th, 2006

as long as they don’t start take over the site I think it will be fine.

Left by madscott on September 28th, 2006

Linkage! Thanks guys, we’re glad you’re enjoying the comic.

Oh yeah, and I was suprised it isn’t so prominant on the site that it becomes all you can find. In fact, I also had to dig a little to get to it.

Left by spambot on September 29th, 2006

It’s my understanding that Scott Rosenberg and Platinum want DrunkDuck to retain its own identity and build upon it, rather than effectively become little more than an online venue for Platinum comics. The absolute last thing they want to do is drive the people who made DrunkDuck the success it is away from the site. If anything, I think the hope is that works like Cowboys & Aliens, which is going to get a certain amount of promotion, will draw new readers to the other work onsite.

The notion that we’ve “raised the bar” for DD doesn’t really make sense to me–while C&A might be a bit more polished technically, there’s a genuine spirit of enthusiasm and experimentation in the DD stuff I’ve read (which, admittedly, isn’t that much, as yet) that more than makes up for it. I would be terribly upset to hear C&A had “squeezed out” something as frequently brilliant and downright enjoyable as HERE BE ROBOTS, and I suspect the same can be said for most of Platinum’s creators and staff.

(Which isn’t to say I’m speaking for anyone but myself here.)

Andrew Foley

Left by Andrew Foley on October 2nd, 2006

Thanks for stopping in Andrew. I think we all agree with you here. I have seen or heard nothing to make me think they would push out the “little guys” outside the little forum grumbling but that doesn’t count.

On a side not are you doing 24 hour comic day this year? October 7th is almost here. http://www.24hourcomics.com/

Left by madscott on October 2nd, 2006

Unfortunately, I won’t be able to do 24 Hour Comic Day this year. I’ve done three 24 Hour comics and every time I do, they wipe me out for quite a while, sometimes a week or more. And the week after this year’s event, I’m doing a couple readings of DONE TO DEATH and PARTING WAYS for the Calgary/Banff International Wordfest, opening up for TokyoPop’s Svetlana Chmakova and Drawn + Quarterly’s Chester Brown. I’ve never done a comic reading before, so I’m all sorts of nervous to begin with, there’s technical details that need sorting out, and, well, they’re paying me to be there so I feel like I have to be as close to 100% as possible, which prevents me from destroying my body just a few days beforehand.

If anyone’s interested, my (and my wife’s) last 24 Hour Comic(s) can be found here:
http://andrewandtiina.com/twentyfourhr.html

I’m still working on getting the first two scanned. And by “working on” it, I mean “am trying to find the original pages,” which were misplaced during my last move.)

Andrew

PS: Not that anybody cares, but I will be posting on DD as soon as someone figures out why the accounts I’ve created aren’t being verified. I know I and pretty much everyone at Platinum are reading the comments with a great deal of interest.

Left by Andrew Foley on October 2nd, 2006

Hey Andrew, glad you showed! I appreciate the response!

Just so you know, I honestly don’t think anyone is ‘pushing’ the newbies out (a fact that has been repeated over and over on the DD boards). Far from it.

I also have no issue with your art, or you in particular. In fact, I am quite awestruck by your artwork on the site! Truly excellent.

I was simply voicing a concern I’ve been hearing. It might occur, it might not…only time will tell.

I have always viewed DD as a place of learning, believe it or not.

While a few people starting out on DD don’t want to do art professionally and simply have a tale to tell, moat that I’ve met DO want to produce art professionally and want to get better. Posting on DD is a way to hone their skills and to share their vision with their friends and others in a community of like-minded people without being held up to a standard they may not be prepared for yet. It’s an easy-going, fun community atmosphere.

When someone who *does* produce professional art enters the arena, there is naturally the concern that it could change the site dynamic, however unintentionally. There is now a new ‘high bar’ set, one which many have yet to reach…and that many might not want to reach but now feel that they must. There is an intimidation factor that didn’t exist before.

Are there professional-level cartoonists on the Duck currently? Yes. However, they also have their earlier, poorer stuff listed there for the others to see and learn from as well. The process of growth is evident from the first strip to the latest for all to see. Very few start out in the big leagues. Newbies gain hope that they too can reach that level someday though hard work and perseverance by example.

In other words, however unintentionally, the now-pro DD creators are teaching to those who will listen simply by posting and being able to relate to the newbies.

A professional artist who starts using DD might arguably set the bar higher merely by his/her presence. I’m not saying that you shouldn’t be extremely proud of the excellent work you’re producing, or that your presence is unwelcome…but your previous growth isn’t necessarily evident either. Sure you’ve obviously grown as an artist, but from what? What was your stuff like before?

Imagine you’re someone just starting out, and your work is highly unrefined (or it’s stick figures, sprites, clipart, whatever). You want to post your work in hopes of overcoming your own shyness and learning how to improve. Which kind of site are you going to choose? A proving ground that focuses on newbies and people who were once newbies (none of whom are paid for their efforts), or a site that seems to focus its energies on professional artists?

Then again, I could be totally off the mark. Only time will tell. I just recall how it was when I started out, and what others have told me off the DD site over the years.

I do love what has been done to the site under Platinum’s hand, and the rotation on the Featured Comic seems well-balanced from what I’ve seen so far. But how great would it be to see the DD ‘How To’ section reinstated, with tips from Platinum Pros on the site? Also, a section showing earlier artistic efforts would go a long ways towards closing the gap between the pros and the just-starting newbies.

I’m just concerned that the buzz and hype about the pros moving in might overshadow the underlying growth of the site’s newbie population. People seem to be glossing over it, or disregarding it entirely.

Oh, and I totally agree on ‘HERE BE ROBOTS’. It is a bottle of pure awesome. I’m not talking about that level of strip, however.

P.S. – Looking at your site right now, your stuff is unbridled awesome. 🙂

Left by Cindermain on October 2nd, 2006

I don’t know what to say about the high bar intimidation theory, other than I sincerely hope nobody feels the way you speculate they might, or if they do feel that way that it doesn’t stop them from posting their work.

Even though I work as a writer, I come from an art background, having graduated from the Drawing Program at the Alberta College of Art (best known in comic circles as the college John Byrne went to for three years), and I believe strongly in the value of the critique as a way of improving one’s craft.

In addition to that, I’m very strongly in favour of any sort of comic arts-based community that’s focused on the improvement of one’s craft in a supportive manner. When I started trying to break in to comics, lo those many years ago, I had no internet and no community of like-minded people with which to share my ambition/hone my skills. And I know the value of that sort of community–one of the first forums I actively took part in was a would-be comic creators assembly which counted writers currently working for Oni, Avatar, Image, Platinum, and others, back before any of us had any credits to our name. I believe–no, I *know* the value of community for the aspiring creator.

That said, comics is a harsh business for a creator to break into (the pay’s kind of awful if you’re not a well-known commodity even when you do get a foot in a door or two), and if one has any hope of making a go of it, they’re going to have to develop a fairly thick skin at the earliest opportunity. I don’t think anybody expects a newbie to produce at the level of a pro, but if that same newbie can’t put their work up next to a pro’s and use whatever feedback they get as a learning tool, to my mind, that’s a lost opportunity.

The good news is, Platinum is far and away the most supportive company I’ve ever seen when it comes to working with would-be creators. I spent two years working with Executive Editor Lee Nordling before my writing skills were developed to a place where he was comfortable giving me an actual assignment–and I’m far from the only writer or artist at Platinum that can say that. The company takes every non-superhero* pitch they receive seriously, no matter who it comes from, and I honestly would be surprised if the guys running the show aren’t trawling through DD even as I type, looking for people with ideas and/or the skills to create the sort of comic they’re looking for. Anyone who wants to break into comics but doesn’t post their work on Drunk Duck…again, it’s an opportunity–for learning, for creative development, for information on the industry, if not an actual contract and an advance–lost. Fortune favours the bold, as they say.

With that in mind, I’m going to be bringing this:

“…how great would it be to see the DD ‘How To’ section reinstated, with tips from Platinum Pros on the site?” Also, a section showing earlier artistic efforts would go a long ways towards closing the gap between the pros and the just-starting newbies.”

to the attention of the higher-ups at Platinum. Personally, I think a how-to section is a great idea.

I’m less sure about showing the early work of artists and writers, if only because I’m not sure how the artists would feel about showing something that isn’t their best work and I’m not sure how the writers would feel about putting intellectual property that might still have some value out in the public eye. For my part, I lost almost everything from my early writing days in a computer crash a couple years back (embarrassing admission time: I’m a natural-born luddite and even though I’ve been online for six or so years now, I still find the whole computer thing quite perplexing. I know how to back stuff up now, though…)

But talking about the creative process? One of my favourite things to do, as anyone who’s read my LiveJournal for any length of time can attest to. Hell, I’ll take talking about creating over actually creating any day–it’s much less stressful. I’ll run the idea by Platinum and see what can be done.

Best,
A

PS: Thanks for the kind words re: my and my wife’s site.

Left by Andrew Foley on October 3rd, 2006

Jesus On A Stick you can tell you guys both love writing.
=P

I think now that the dust is settling you will see most people go back to business as usual.
On DD that can mean anything, but we like it that way.

Left by Scott on October 3rd, 2006

Excellent! I appreciate you taking the time to give my ideas to the Platinum higher-ups. A ‘How To’ section would be a great addition! And while I know that Professional Artists and Writers generally avoid showing their earlier works, I still posit that it would be an excellent way to show the growth of the individual to the professional they are today.

And true, a thick skin is necessary in today’s marketplace. Critique can be an excellent tool if used properly. My fear is that the act of critique might be overlooked, or that it might be an unfair critique when compared to someone at a Professional Level. I would hate to see that aspect of the Duck overlooked.

A general rule that I like to follow when critiquing a strip is to first list at least two positive items about the piece before giving constructive criticism…a step that many fans sadly seem to skip nowadays.

Quick question, why do you have an asterisk next to non-superhero? Just to emphasize that point, or is there an addendum that was not listed? Too much comic reading I guess, it instantly makes me want to check the bottom of the article for a reference…”Check Issue #5! – Shakin’ Stan!” No big deal, just curious.

So Platinum is definitely going to be scouring DD for new ideas? Damn. I may need to relaunch Cinderblock…

Thanks for taking the time to discuss this with me! I am also very interested in discussing the creative process… it is a lot more fun to talk about than to do at times, unfortunately. In fact, I have a project I should be working on right now. 🙂 Off to work, or Chuck Rowles will have my pelt!

Also, have you considered possibly being interviewed on the Gigcast? I know I’m not the one to ask, but I think it would be a great interview.

And Scott, I agree that it might be business as usual…which for DD can mean anything. I would just like to see it take a more positive spin after this period of flux, one centered on growth. It would not only be beneficial to the submitter, but to Platinum in the long run.

And what makes you think I like to write? 😉

Left by Cindermain on October 3rd, 2006

Crap, I knew I was forgetting something.

The asterisk next to super-heroes was because Platinum doesn’t take superhero submissions. They’ve got an extensive superhero line that’s been developed internally and they don’t want someone claiming copyright infringement if an idea they’re developing overlaps with something coming from a submitter. So they just don’t look at superhero pitches.

Lawsuits are actually one of the two main reasons cited by comic companies for not accepting unsolicited submissions (the other is just that the editors simply don’t have time to deal with stuff that doesn’t directly lead to getting their books out on time.)

As for interviews–I tend to be quite a bit more eloquent when I’m typing (I don’t stutter, mumble, or speak too fast to be understood as much when it’s just the fingers), so I don’t know how entertaining I’d be, but I’m pretty much always up for interviews. Again, they beat work. 😉

A

Left by Andrew Foley on October 3rd, 2006

Andrew,

Damn Skippy They Do!

We’ll let you get the feel of DD for a while then perhaps we’ll stp by and see how you like ur new home on the web.

How does that sound?

JT

Left by jtpokie on October 3rd, 2006

Works for me! You can get my contact info off the website if and when.

A

Left by Andrew Foley on October 3rd, 2006

Cindermain–

Just wanted to write a quick note to say I’ve passed along your idea for a How-To Section and an Early Work section to Platinum Central, and they’re giving the idea serious consideration.

If you think this is something other DrunkDuckers would like to see, you might want to try and organize them to petition Platinum and the DD staff to set something up–the company’s always more inclined to go forward with projects they perceive an external audience and support for, so even though I cut and pasted your exact suggestion and said it wasn’t my idea, something from someone other than me would likely help the cause.

A

Left by Andrew Foley on October 4th, 2006